Rime Movement

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Rime Movement

Post by LauraJ on Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:22 pm

Though I've read about the Rime movement several times, I don't think I'm entirely clear on something about it. Can you be within your tradition and be part of the Rime movment? For example, could I be a Sakyapa and part of Rime if I am simply non-sectarian? If memory serves, HHDL is part of it.

Thanks for your insight.

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by caz namyaw on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:48 pm

Drolma wrote:Though I've read about the Rime movement several times, I don't think I'm entirely clear on something about it. Can you be within your tradition and be part of the Rime movment? For example, could I be a Sakyapa and part of Rime if I am simply non-sectarian? If memory serves, HHDL is part of it.

Thanks for your insight.

Ive said this before why bother ? each path is complete on its own, Theres no need for religious conflict we can all get along without having to go to non sectarian extremism.
respect of others practise is what is needed, there is often alot of political issues mixed in with tibetan buddhism which i find unfortunate...if being non sectarian is being rime then i must be a rime to....perhapes a wikipedia article would come in handy.

peace

xxx
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by caz namyaw on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:59 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rim%C3%A9

Oh wait maybe not it turns out that rime is actually a new tradition....isnt that strange.

Rimé was intended to recognize the differences between traditions and appreciate them, while also establishing a dialogue which would create common ground. It is considered important that variety be preserved, and therefore Rimé teachers are generally quite careful to emphasize differences in thought, giving students many options as to how to proceed in their spiritual training.

Seems okay so far.....But do you really need a new movement in when you already have 4 complete paths ?

The practitioner may take empowerments from the numerous handed down lineages and living masters, though it is not a requirement to do so.

Now this would prove a difficulty wouldnt it if one had already recieved previous empowerments for masters wouldnt they have a samaya bond, isnt this bond ment to stay with one certain path of teachers only to avoid difficultly in practise ?

Im not so sure about this rime movement, The traditional paths seem to work just fine....this seems to be a political set up movement to appease the 4 schools so there is no sect fighting to me. but surely that should be practised anyway as not all beings are suited to the same form of medicine.
Im wary of political buddhism.....

peace

xxx
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by Dharanidhar on Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:43 pm

I am no expert, but my understanding is that one may have a root guru from one tradition, yet receive empowerments and develop samaya with a range of teachers from all schools.

For example, your guru may identify a particular reason for you to seek an empowerment from a different school and actively encourage it.

Samaya is not attached to all empowerments. For example, the lower Tantras have no such commitments. However, HYT does. Even this does not mean that one cannot receive higher empowerments from several teachers.

This should not be confusing but complementary, within a context and with a purpose in mind, guided by your main teacher.

The idea that you must stick to one tradition and not have samaya with any other is not Tibetan but may be the preference of a particular guru (hint Caz, big hint Wink ).

As this flexibility already exists, the need to invent Rime seems to be more an attempt to eradicate sectarianism or perhaps create a single Tibetan school with HHDL at its head. In doing so, by banning certain practices and promoting others, there is a huge risk, as you say, that choice of schools and coherence of path may be adversely affected. Consensus is vital - Tibet has too many examples of conflict already. Wink
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by caz namyaw on Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:03 pm

Dharanidhar wrote:I am no expert, but my understanding is that one may have a root guru from one tradition, yet receive empowerments and develop samaya with a range of teachers from all schools.

For example, your guru may identify a particular reason for you to seek an empowerment from a different school and actively encourage it.

Samaya is not attached to all empowerments. For example, the lower Tantras have no such commitments. However, HYT does. Even this does not mean that one cannot receive higher empowerments from several teachers.

This should not be confusing but complementary, within a context and with a purpose in mind, guided by your main teacher.

The idea that you must stick to one tradition and not have samaya with any other is not Tibetan but may be the preference of a particular guru (hint Caz, big hint Wink ).

As this flexibility already exists, the need to invent Rime seems to be more an attempt to eradicate sectarianism or perhaps create a single Tibetan school with HHDL at its head. In doing so, by banning certain practices and promoting others, there is a huge risk, as you say, that choice of schools and coherence of path may be adversely affected. Consensus is vital - Tibet has too many examples of conflict already. Wink

Agreed....Im not all to familiar with the concept in general but it seems black and white to me that respect should be a thing naturally taught amongst the four schools, unfortunatly for political reasons of dharma being mixed with politics it inevitably results in corruption in my opinion, The buddha left the palace of pleasures to practise only dharma in that example purity arose, however if the buddha had stayed in the palace and attempted to practise dharma amongst the distracting samsaric pleasures then he would not have been successful. Thus mixing dharma and politics is not a good idea.

Thus political religious movements...... :uhoh:

peace

xxx
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by sherab zangpo on Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:06 am

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by LauraJ on Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:52 am

I think I'm more confused now! I sincerely appreciate the input though.

I'll reflect and say more. But Dhar, you bring up a good point that some teachers will say it's appropriate to receive initiations from others, but your HYT guru is of course your vajra guru. And the lower tantra empowerments don't create samaya.

What I think I understand so far is that Rime is more of a political movement than a TB tradition.

/\

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by caz namyaw on Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:48 am

Drolma wrote:I think I'm more confused now! I sincerely appreciate the input though.

I'll reflect and say more. But Dhar, you bring up a good point that some teachers will say it's appropriate to receive initiations from others, but your HYT guru is of course your vajra guru. And the lower tantra empowerments don't create samaya.

What I think I understand so far is that Rime is more of a political movement than a TB tradition.

/\

The four traditions are fine as they are, i dont see the point in creating alot of extra work for your self by master hoping for empowerments.
No matter what path you follow true progress can only be made by sincerly making an effort to walk your chosen path, if we are continually path hoping so to speak then progress will be little.

peace

xxx
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by Dharanidhar on Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:27 am

Drolma wrote:I think I'm more confused now! I sincerely appreciate the input though.

I'll reflect and say more. But Dhar, you bring up a good point that some teachers will say it's appropriate to receive initiations from others, but your HYT guru is of course your vajra guru. And the lower tantra empowerments don't create samaya.

What I think I understand so far is that Rime is more of a political movement than a TB tradition.

/\

Yes,and it is even acceptable to have more than one Vajra Master, I've been told.
I think it was a Sakyapa 'expert' who told me this. Certainly I know people who have received HYT empowerments from different traditions. I think HHDL is happy to give Kalachakra empowerments to all, but I'm not totally convinced that this is true HYT.
A Sakyapa guru aslo advised me to receive a HYT empowerment in his tradition, knowing that I had samaya elsewhere.

Maybe one thing Rime could achieve is to standardise and publish such expectations, restrictions, permissions, equivalences etc. across the traditions. No need to interfere with what they do, just clarify how they may interact at different levels.

I'm realistic enough to think many of the rules have been made up as they went along, and some gurus are more restrictive than others about the freedom of their Sangha members to move between sects.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by caz namyaw on Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:36 am

Dharanidhar wrote:
Drolma wrote:I think I'm more confused now! I sincerely appreciate the input though.

I'll reflect and say more. But Dhar, you bring up a good point that some teachers will say it's appropriate to receive initiations from others, but your HYT guru is of course your vajra guru. And the lower tantra empowerments don't create samaya.

What I think I understand so far is that Rime is more of a political movement than a TB tradition.

/\

Yes,and it is even acceptable to have more than one Vajra Master, I've been told.
I think it was a Sakyapa 'expert' who told me this. Certainly I know people who have received HYT empowerments from different traditions. I think HHDL is happy to give Kalachakra empowerments to all, but I'm not totally convinced that this is true HYT.
A Sakyapa guru aslo advised me to receive a HYT empowerment in his tradition, knowing that I had samaya elsewhere.

Maybe one thing Rime could achieve is to standardise and publish such expectations, restrictions, permissions, equivalences etc. across the traditions. No need to interfere with what they do, just clarify how they may interact at different levels.

I'm realistic enough to think many of the rules have been made up as they went along, and some gurus are more restrictive than others about the freedom of their Sangha members to move between sects.

political religious movement avoid. Stick with the path you are following.

peace

xxx
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by sherab zangpo on Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:34 am

caz namyaw wrote:

political religious movement avoid. Stick with the path you are following.

peace

xxx

I think this depends more on the capacity of the student. Even teachers can only have a general idea of a students capacity.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by caz namyaw on Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:40 am

sherab zangpo wrote:
caz namyaw wrote:

political religious movement avoid. Stick with the path you are following.

peace

xxx

I think this depends more on the capacity of the student. Even teachers can only have a general idea of a students capacity.

I suppose it does but still tibetan politics neednt be involved in the practise anymore most of the practise is done far from tibet so the rime movement almost seems useless in the west, as we dont have the sectarian disputes like in tibet.

peace

xxx
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by sherab zangpo on Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:57 am

caz namyaw wrote:

so the rime movement almost seems useless in the west,



xxx

Ris med was really an attitude of preserving the similarities of all the Tibetan schools, icluding the Jonangpas, rather than exploiting their differences for worldly gain and fame etc.

As it was important then, even more so now.

Rime is not a school.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by dorje on Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:08 pm

I think I wrote this in BC before.

my post on BC wrote:
Rime Movement

Rime (ris.med) literally "without bias" or "without partiality" (ris - biasness/partiality, med - without).

Practicing Rime means that you do not place biasness to your tradition, recognizing that each and every one of the traditions is equally profound and beneficial. It also means understanding that no tradition is better than the other, and understanding that everyone, no matter his own biasness or affiliation, can and will benefit from receiving teachings and doing the practicing other teachings and practices of other traditions.

Practicing Rime DOES NOT MEAN PRACTICING LITTLE BITS AND PIECES FROM EVERY SINGLE TRADITION. You have to remember that the essence of the Rime tradition (and any other tradition for tat matter) is the view. You can go for any amount of HYT/Maha-Anu-Ati yoga wangchen from any lineage/tradition, but so long as you practice your main yidam/lineage and practice it well, you satisfy all your samaya without exception.

A Rime practitioner does not practice all paths. What a Rime practitioner does is follow his own tradition, but still keeps an open mind that if he or she is at a crossroads of his practice, receiving teachings from another tradition is definitely possible. It does not mean mixing and matching, but application to his own practice other teachings which are beneficial. It may also mean receiving empowerments from the same yidam but of a different transmission lineage (e.g. receiving Pabhongkha Vajrayogini and Ngorpa Vajrayogini, and so on) and complementing them into your own teaching.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by dorje on Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:18 pm

Dharanidhar wrote:Yes,and it is even acceptable to have more than one Vajra Master, I've been told.I think it was a Sakyapa 'expert' who told me this. Certainly I know people who have received HYT empowerments from different traditions. I think HHDL is happy to give Kalachakra empowerments to all, but I'm not totally convinced that this is true HYT.
A Sakyapa guru aslo advised me to receive a HYT empowerment in his tradition, knowing that I had samaya elsewhere.

Samaya is samaya. You have samaya to your practice and the Vajra Guru, but not to the tradition. That being said, One of the samayas is not to disparage the tradition of others, meaning not to insult them. Pointing out the faults in a compassionate way is fine, though.

Dharanidhar wrote:Maybe one thing Rime could achieve is to standardise and publish such expectations, restrictions, permissions, equivalences etc. across the traditions. No need to interfere with what they do, just clarify how they may interact at different levels.

If you (in general, not in particular) understood what Rime is really about, then you would see it is essential to follow Rime.

Dharanidhar wrote:I'm realistic enough to think many of the rules have been made up as they went along, and some gurus are more restrictive than others about the freedom of their Sangha members to move between sects.

If it's not based on the tantras then the restriction would be man-made, and is not samaya at all, meaning you are free to accept or reject them as you deem fit.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by Dharanidhar on Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:43 pm

'Based on' is right. Interpretation is involved. No guarantee that each school will have exactly the same view on a particular practice, but certainly mutual respect of each other. I'm sure there have been notable differences, some of which still exist even within sects. ;-)

It is perhaps also worth noting that samaya also places obligations on the Vajra Master.

My understanding is that this is tied to each specific empowerment, rather than a general obligation to support the student, which would be expected anyway. Hence several Vajra Masters may help a student through their samaya in different aspects of the path.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by dorje on Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:11 pm

Samayas are basically the same across the traditions as well as tantras. What this means is that those practicing kriya tantras also have to uphold the 14 root and 48 branch vows. and this is based mainly on the Guhyagarbha and Hevajra Tantras.

So samaya is not tied to the specific empowerment. I think you are confusing it with practice commitments.

For example, vowing not to eat eggs when you are practicing Garuda is not samaya, it is a practice commitment.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by sherab zangpo on Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:18 pm

Ris med supplication
by HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

I supplicate all the noble doctrine holders of India, Tibet, China,
Shambhala and all other places who follow the precious teachings
of the sutras and tantras taught by the incomparable teacher who
is praised like the white lotus.

I supplicate the Nyingmapas of the secret mantra, who uphold
the sutras, mantras and the three inner tantras in general, and
especially the tradition of the Great Perfection - perfectly translated
by the supreme learned and accomplished lotsawas and panditas.

I supplicate the Kagyupas, protectors of beings, who chieftly
uphold the lineage of practice and blessing from the Mahasiddhas
Naropa and Maitrepa, the cycles of the profound instructions
and, especially, Mahamudra.

I supplicate the glorious Sakyapas who illuminate the doctrine of
teaching and practicing the heart extract of Lord Birwapa, the
cycles of instruction, in general, and the Path and Fruit in particular.

I supplicate the Riwo Gedenpas who mainly uphold
the essence tradition of Manjushri - the key points of the path of
sutra and tantra - by chiefly practicing the Gradual Path of Palden
Atisha.

I supplicate the Jetsun Jonangpas who chieftly uphold the meaning
of the sutras of the last Dharma Wheel and of the Kalachakra, who
have realized the truth of the sungata-essence and possess the vajra
yoga.

Impartially I supplicate all the doctrine holders, each and every one,
that exist in these snowy ranges, of the Glorious Shangpa, Choyul,
Shije, Nyendrup and the other cycles of profound instructions.

By the blessings of making these supplications, may sectarianism be
calmed and may impartial devotion blaze forth. May all the doctrine
holders be in harmony and may all countries be peaceful. May the
auspicious circumstance in which the teachings flourish for a long time
be present.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by caz namyaw on Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:24 pm

sherab zangpo wrote:Ris med supplication
by HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

I supplicate all the noble doctrine holders of India, Tibet, China,
Shambhala and all other places who follow the precious teachings
of the sutras and tantras taught by the incomparable teacher who
is praised like the white lotus.

I supplicate the Nyingmapas of the secret mantra, who uphold
the sutras, mantras and the three inner tantras in general, and
especially the tradition of the Great Perfection - perfectly translated
by the supreme learned and accomplished lotsawas and panditas.

I supplicate the Kagyupas, protectors of beings, who chieftly
uphold the lineage of practice and blessing from the Mahasiddhas
Naropa and Maitrepa, the cycles of the profound instructions
and, especially, Mahamudra.

I supplicate the glorious Sakyapas who illuminate the doctrine of
teaching and practicing the heart extract of Lord Birwapa, the
cycles of instruction, in general, and the Path and Fruit in particular.

I supplicate the Riwo Gedenpas who mainly uphold
the essence tradition of Manjushri - the key points of the path of
sutra and tantra - by chiefly practicing the Gradual Path of Palden
Atisha.

I supplicate the Jetsun Jonangpas who chieftly uphold the meaning
of the sutras of the last Dharma Wheel and of the Kalachakra, who
have realized the truth of the sungata-essence and possess the vajra
yoga.

Impartially I supplicate all the doctrine holders, each and every one,
that exist in these snowy ranges, of the Glorious Shangpa, Choyul,
Shije, Nyendrup and the other cycles of profound instructions.

By the blessings of making these supplications, may sectarianism be
calmed and may impartial devotion blaze forth. May all the doctrine
holders be in harmony and may all countries be peaceful. May the
auspicious circumstance in which the teachings flourish for a long time
be present.

The only cause of sectarianism is uncontrolled minds, each tradition is special in its own right, mixing them will lose special qualities they possess all 4 paths lead to the same mountain top but you cannot all start on the same footing.
Rejoice that each practitoner has a full path to enlightenment !

peace

xxx
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by Dharanidhar on Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:42 pm

dorje wrote:Samayas are basically the same across the traditions as well as tantras. What this means is that those practicing kriya tantras also have to uphold the 14 root and 48 branch vows. and this is based mainly on the Guhyagarbha and Hevajra Tantras.

So samaya is not tied to the specific empowerment. I think you are confusing it with practice commitments.

For example, vowing not to eat eggs when you are practicing Garuda is not samaya, it is a practice commitment.

The samaya may be the same. My point is that you have it with each Vajra Master from whom you receive, for example, HYT empowerments, as that Vajra master has a lifelong commitment to you.

I understand practice commitments such as Vajrayogini Quick Path daily etc. Wink
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by dorje on Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:13 pm

You are supposed to see all other Vajra Gurus as inseparable from your main Vajra Guru anyway, so I don't see any problem in that.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by sherab zangpo on Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:24 pm

Dorje is correct.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by Dharanidhar on Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:34 pm

dorje wrote:You are supposed to see all other Vajra Gurus as inseparable from your main Vajra Guru anyway, so I don't see any problem in that.

That confirms what I understand about it.

And, of course, all seen within the context of the Madhyamaka Prasangika view.

Thank you. Smile
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by LauraJ on Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:00 pm

Thanks a lot for bringing up practice committments vs. samaya. Can someone help me understand the difference?

Here's an example:

I received empowerment which created samaya and in the empowerment I received a mantra committment.

Then I did an extended teaching that came with a sadhana committment with the same guru who had just introduced me to the path.

In this situation do the practice committments impact upholding samaya? Or are the vows entirely seperate?

Thank you!

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by LauraJ on Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:04 pm

Hi Dhar,

I've received the same instruction, that it's acceptable to receive other empowerments and committments across traditions and there's nothing wrong with that. A teacher may advice a student to keep it simple, and it's probably based on capacity like someone else mentioned. One of my teachers advised that I keep it simple for now and just stick to Sakya empowerments, but not out of discriminations towards other traditions. It's because I'm a beginner. The kind Gelug Geshe who gave me my first formal refuge told me to take teachings from all traditions.

/\

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