Rime Movement

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by malalu on Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:50 am

You all seem much more experienced than myself in these matters, and I was hoping to ask a question or two (Sherab, Dorje, Drolma, Dhar, ect.). I have just begun my journey recently doing daily Vajarayana meditation which was instructed to me in a class. I was given a short introduction of the meditation as well as an oral transmission of the mantra by the teacher.
Was this just an instruction and permission to perform this meditation/mantra?

I have not taken refuge vows and wish to do so in the future. Is this better to be done by someone that I can communicate regularly with if need be and do I then have "samaya" or life-time(s) bond with them? Or Am I mistaking this for vows taken further down the road? Is it best to keep to one tradition or school with this?

If someone could shed some light on this, I would appreciate it. I know it is important to find a good teacher to proceed on the path, and I don't want to rush in to anything. What do you say from your experiences?
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by LauraJ on Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:30 am

Hi malalu,

I'm sure others can answer you better, but I'll share with you that taking refuge doesn't create samaya. But it does create a connection Smile It is best to have a qualified monk do this for you. When you take refuge you will be formally proclaiming that you are a Buddhist, and your only refuge is the triple gem. Sometimes you're also instructed to follow the lay precepts.

That's wonderful that you're receiving meditation instructions and mantra transmission. That gave you permission to do the practice and mantra. But if it is a lower tantra (the bodhisattvas like Tara, or Medicine Buddha, for example), you're not obligated in the same way you would be with samaya with a Vajra guru.

I hope this helps! I'm happy for you that you're receiving transmissions and practices.

Kind regards,
DRolma

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by malalu on Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:16 am

Thank you, Drolma! I value your opinion as much as the other's. This gives me some insight. This is one of my goals for the upcoming year. I do follow the precepts (always working on right conduct of speech- so 4 of 5 anyways Wink ) so that is something I would like to do also.
Thus far I am not doing any of the meditations you've mentioned, perhaps one day they will be presented to me.
I find things just usally happen at the appropriate time, and I hope they continue to do so.

Thanks for your help, Drolma
Best wishes, and be well
Malalu 😄
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by caz namyaw on Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:42 am

malalu wrote:You all seem much more experienced than myself in these matters, and I was hoping to ask a question or two (Sherab, Dorje, Drolma, Dhar, ect.). I have just begun my journey recently doing daily Vajarayana meditation which was instructed to me in a class. I was given a short introduction of the meditation as well as an oral transmission of the mantra by the teacher.
Was this just an instruction and permission to perform this meditation/mantra?

I have not taken refuge vows and wish to do so in the future. Is this better to be done by someone that I can communicate regularly with if need be and do I then have "samaya" or life-time(s) bond with them? Or Am I mistaking this for vows taken further down the road? Is it best to keep to one tradition or school with this?

If someone could shed some light on this, I would appreciate it. I know it is important to find a good teacher to proceed on the path, and I don't want to rush in to anything. What do you say from your experiences?

Stick with one school, test them first and find which one is right for you then stick with it and follow the doctrine purely.

peace

xxx
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by Dharanidhar on Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:07 am

malalu wrote:You all seem much more experienced than myself in these matters, and I was hoping to ask a question or two (Sherab, Dorje, Drolma, Dhar, ect.). I have just begun my journey recently doing daily Vajarayana meditation which was instructed to me in a class. I was given a short introduction of the meditation as well as an oral transmission of the mantra by the teacher.
Was this just an instruction and permission to perform this meditation/mantra?

I have not taken refuge vows and wish to do so in the future. Is this better to be done by someone that I can communicate regularly with if need be and do I then have "samaya" or life-time(s) bond with them? Or Am I mistaking this for vows taken further down the road? Is it best to keep to one tradition or school with this?

If someone could shed some light on this, I would appreciate it. I know it is important to find a good teacher to proceed on the path, and I don't want to rush in to anything. What do you say from your experiences?

Taking refuge needs no formal process, and can even be performed alone in front of an image of a Buddha. However, without a Sangha this would IMHO be very unsatisfactory, as one takes refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. It is important to have regular contact with a good teacher, but you may be fortunate enough to live near a Geshe or other qualified master. This 'higher level' access becomes more important as you make progress in Vajrayana.

Your teacher should be able to give you teachings and instructions on meditation from the very first lesson, which you may then perform at home. If any empowerments etc. carry any commitments then you should be told well in advance. It is unlikely you will encounter these at this stage and if your teacher gives you a mantra, chant it with delight. If you are unsure, every teacher I have met would be pleased to explain such things as the precise meaning of a mantra.

If, for example, you were in the Gelug tradition you may be taught simple breathing meditation and then the Lam Rim meditations, which comprise a logical and developmental programme.

Vows are promises which we all do our best to keep. We may renew them, and seek to purify any negative karma we create in this life. Isn't it fantastic to have that opportunity!? Smile
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by malalu on Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:28 pm

Thanks for the help as well, Caz and Dhar. I have no committments thus far (only to myself Wink ).
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by caz namyaw on Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:43 pm

:yay:

peace

xxx
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by dorje on Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:10 pm

If you have received any empowerment (more specifically in a blessing empowerment, jenang, or a full empowerment, wangchen), you would have taken Refuge, Bodhisattva, and Samaya vows. Therefore you have samaya.

If you have taken Refuge vows but not the Bodhisattva vows, then you have no samaya, because the basis of the Samaya vows are the Bodhisattva vows.

Practice commitments are the ones which you can forget to do or abridge them if you don't have the time or have space constraints and so on. Samaya vows relate to maintaining Pure View.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by Dharanidhar on Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:09 pm

dorje wrote:If you have received any empowerment (more specifically in a blessing empowerment, jenang, or a full empowerment, wangchen), you would have taken Refuge, Bodhisattva, and Samaya vows. Therefore you have samaya.


'any' empowerment?

I think you are generalising too freely. The lower Tantra empowerments carry no such commitments and do not require Bodhisattva or Samaya vows at all.

Your second paragraph is correct, but contradicts the first. Wink
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by dorje on Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:27 pm

Lower Tantra empowerments are still tantric empowerments, and so they carry the same samaya. This I am brought to understand by the Lamas who have given me advices on tantra, especially HH the 100th Ganden Tripa when he was in Singapore where I live.

There is no contradiction in my second statement with my first statement. The nature of a jenang or a wangchen is such that it includes all 3 sets of vows in a single setting. However if you have not received Bodhisattva vows, then you have not received the empowerment, because the basis of empowerment, and hence samaya, is bodhicitta, which is based on the bodhisattva vows.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by sherab zangpo on Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:51 pm

Four basic pledges common to all classes of tantra are.

four great root pledges

know that for tantra
the basic pledges are four
to have correct view of the conventional
not to forsake the three jewels
to safeguard the awakened mind
and not to reject the true initiation.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by LauraJ on Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:56 pm

Hi dojre,

Ummmmm what you've written contradicts what I've learned too.

Confused in California,
Drolma

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by LauraJ on Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:58 pm

Sherab,

I received Green Tara twice, from two different lamas. The mantra and practice was transmitted once, and the mantra was transmitted the second time. But I don't have samaya with those lamas as I do with my vajra guru, right?

Would this be correct? :whistle:

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by sherab zangpo on Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:14 pm

Drolma wrote:Sherab,

I received Green Tara twice, from two different lamas. The mantra and practice was transmitted once, and the mantra was transmitted the second time. But I don't have samaya with those lamas as I do with my vajra guru, right?

Would this be correct? :whistle:


know that for tantra
the basic pledges are four
to have correct view of the conventional
not to forsake the three jewels
to safeguard the awakened mind
and not to reject the true initiation.


simply.

You have pledges in action and conduct tantra,( to have correct view of the conventional, not to forsake the three jewels,
to safeguard the awakened mind
) Then you have samaya with root teacher, (and not to reject the true initiation) If you understand the last then you have samaya with all.


Last edited by sherab zangpo on Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by dorje on Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:16 pm

Do you mind explaining what you have learned, and from who?
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by sherab zangpo on Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:18 pm

dorje wrote:Do you mind explaining what you have learned, and from who?

Myself or Drolma?
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by LauraJ on Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:23 pm

sherab zangpo wrote:
Drolma wrote:Sherab,

I received Green Tara twice, from two different lamas. The mantra and practice was transmitted once, and the mantra was transmitted the second time. But I don't have samaya with those lamas as I do with my vajra guru, right?

Would this be correct? :whistle:


know that for tantra
the basic pledges are four
to have correct view of the conventional
not to forsake the three jewels
to safeguard the awakened mind
and not to reject the true initiation.


simply.

You have pledges in action and conduct tantra,( to have correct view of the conventional, not to forsake the three jewels,
to safeguard the awakened mind
) Then you have samaya with root teacher, (and not to reject the true initiation) If you understand the last then you have samaya with all.

Most excellent, thank you /\

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by LauraJ on Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:31 pm

dorje wrote:Do you mind explaining what you have learned, and from who?

I'm sure dojra means me! Very Happy

When I first received Green Tara a couple of years ago, I became confused about whether or not I had made a committment to that particular Lama. Though I thought he was wonderful, at that time I was not prepared for such a committment. I had a long, ongoing discussion with a spiritual friend who advised me that I had agreed to follow his advice, but that he was not my teacher in a formal way. He advised me to just be joyful for having received the permissions and practice, and to not worry about having sudden huge ties to Lama la.

This is it in a nutshell, though down the road a different Lama explained to me also that the empowerments I had received did not carry the same weight and committments that the higher tantras would.

I hope this explains somewhat 😄

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by sherab zangpo on Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:35 am

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by LauraJ on Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:00 am

I think our kind mod is trying to get us back on topic. 😇

This is from the link posted above:

Why is the Rime movement important?

Traditionally, Tibetan Buddhist practitioners place a strong emphasis on the view and instructions passed on through their own lineages, which is crucial in maintaining the authenticity of the teachings. Furthermore, many practitioners would spend their entire lives in one monastery and devote much time and effort to a thorough training in one tradition (receiving transmissions, empowerments and pith instructions), that they would not have time to explore others. Because of these circumstances, there is a danger that some practitioners are less open to the views and good qualities of other traditions. There are several amusing stories, for example, of Geshes from the Gelug tradition, who would secretly practice Dzogchen and then receive criticism when it was found they were following following Nyingma texts.

Another reason why Rime is important is that communication between monasteries can be rather limited and some monasteries tend to function somewhat independently. For instance, unlike in Western countries, there is often limited transportation, no telephone, no television and no newspapers. Hence, there are often limited opportunities to be exposed to, and gain respect for, other traditions.

In addition, there have been many learned scholars who criticised the views of other traditions with the good intention of helping their students appreciate their teachings. However, this can occasionally become a bit extreme and some students may harbour the attitude that other traditions are in some way inferior. My personal view is that some Tibetan scholars have fallen in love with the approach of the great Indian masters and then try to emulate them by being critical of other traditions. However, the genuine critical attitude of the Indian masters must be seen in the context of the great debates that occurred between Hindus and Buddhists, with the defeated side willing to adopt the other’s position. In Tibet, as everyone holds the same Buddhist view, it seems unnecessary to over-emphasise subtle differences, which are really just different ways of describing to others the same experiential understanding.

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by dorje on Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:17 am

Drolma wrote:
dorje wrote:Do you mind explaining what you have learned, and from who?

I'm sure dojra means me! Very Happy

When I first received Green Tara a couple of years ago, I became confused about whether or not I had made a committment to that particular Lama. Though I thought he was wonderful, at that time I was not prepared for such a committment. I had a long, ongoing discussion with a spiritual friend who advised me that I had agreed to follow his advice, but that he was not my teacher in a formal way. He advised me to just be joyful for having received the permissions and practice, and to not worry about having sudden huge ties to Lama la.

This is it in a nutshell, though down the road a different Lama explained to me also that the empowerments I had received did not carry the same weight and committments that the higher tantras would.

I hope this explains somewhat 😄

Gotcha.

Basically the commitments are higher and more strict, but the samaya is not. The samaya is between you and the deity, through whatever Lama you encounter with. Therefore, if you have received Green Tara empowerment, your samaya is to Tara, and no one else. Same with HYT empowerments. If you have received Hevajra, for example, then your samaya is with Hevajra.

At any point of time, if you are worried and apprehensive, take a step back and look at the big picture. I'm sure things will be simpler.
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Re: Rime Movement

Post by LauraJ on Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:08 am

Thank you dorje Very Happy

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by sherab zangpo on Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:25 pm

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by muni on Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:24 am

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_

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Re: Rime Movement

Post by sherab zangpo on Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:11 pm

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