Objectless realization without perception

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Objectless realization without perception

Post by LauraJ on Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:49 pm

All example ultimates are the objects of deluded perceptions by definition because something that is not an object is made an object. But this is not a problem. If it is asked why, ss Maitreya has stated:

"The objectless is realized with perception,
the objectless is realized without perception."

This is necessary, because the first statement refers to meditation below the path of seeing, the second, above. It is necessary to use the perception of the example ultimate below the path of seeing in order to generate the heat and so on of the path of application. The at the path of seeing, the true final ultimate is realized by the first stage bodhisattva i.e. the objectless is realized without perception.

I took this quote from Namdrol at E-sangha. It's pretty cool. I believe he's describing the first bhumi. And the implication is that upon achieving the first bhumi we no longer need to use perception to realize object/objectlessness. Rather, we would "see" or "realize" it. But I have no idea how that would be.

So for as long as we have deluded perception we use objects to recognize, perceive, or imagine emptiness? Or we make the ultimate (which is actually not an object) into an object?

Any thoughts about this?

:hands:

LauraJ

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Re: Objectless realization without perception

Post by muni on Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:22 am

This to explain in words, no skills.

When recognized emptiness in a way which is beyond elaboration or percieving; the separation between object and subject need no any elaboration as there is no separation at all.

No hardship or striving in fabricated ideas. Through dependency-emptiness is no materialism or nihilism possible.

muni

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Re: Objectless realization without perception

Post by Gerry on Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:55 pm

Its so simple we make it difficult - another of moving mind's tricks...

we know about the infinite pairs of opposites - "good/bad", "hot/cold", etc.

Samsara and nirvana are yet another pair.

Where do [all of] those come from? As an experience, not a conceptualization?

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Re: Objectless realization without perception

Post by muni on Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:19 pm

Gerry wrote:
Where do [all of] those come from? As an experience, not a conceptualization?
Here should say the experiencer which is the same as the meditator and the knower; so the misperception-basis.

Even analyses are play itself can it help to examine the self and phenomena to understand that the two truths ( how phenomena appear and how they are) are essentially one.

Then the idea of subject, object vanishes in non-dual of appearance and emptiness.

"The one who realizes, the realized and realization" = pouring water into water.
Pure and direct awareness.

muni

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Re: Objectless realization without perception

Post by Gerry on Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:23 am

Sutra and Tantra - yes.

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