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Is there a "driver"?

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Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:06 pm

There is no ego, therefore there is no conscious will. Since there is no conscious will, freedom is illusory. There is no "controller".

Other than teaching and preparation for teaching, what is the compassionate act which would result from this realization?
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Post by zenzen Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:51 pm

First of all, to understand the word 'freedom' one must first have experienced it. For those who seek freedom from reasons born out of 'self' there is no real freedom. Thus, the meaning of the word 'freedom' will reveal only itself after there is no controller, nothing to seek after. This is a riddle of no beginning, no ending. The greatest freedom follows from giving up all possibility for choice. When choosing and picking ceases there may be an action without a cause. The unconditional.
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Post by LauraJ Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:38 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:There is no ego, therefore there is no conscious will. Since there is no conscious will, freedom is illusory. There is no "controller".

Other than teaching and preparation for teaching, what is the compassionate act which would result from this realization?

Dear Tashi,

But, there is conscious will! That's 1/2 of what karma is, right?

Shouldn't this be on the forefront of our minds? And compassionate acts are the result of that realization? If we let our minds run wild and don't keep the mindset of loving-kindness, we're apt to act upon anger, greed, etc. Our actions should reflect our mind-training and conscious will [freedom].

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Post by Element Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:15 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:There is no ego, therefore there is no conscious will.
Conscious will is not ego.

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:]Since there is no conscious will, freedom is illusory. There is no "controller".
Buddha taught wisdom is the controller.
Faith is a person's partner and wisdom is what instructs him.
Taking delight in Nibbana, a mortal is released from all suffering.

SN 1.59
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Post by LauraJ Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:40 am

I should have said wisdom and compassion.

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Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:14 am

If there were a controller then it would arrange things so that we were never depressed, angry, fearful. We are these things. Samsara never vanishes. So there is no controller.

If there were a controller you could control what you thought about for as long as you wanted.

If there was a controller we could be in love, or stop being in love, with whoever we wanted.

The path goes nowhere but wisdom. And wisdom does nothing but teach anatta. If there is anatta there is nothing that exerts conscious will. Compassion is simply to teach this.

We are so desperate to exert a pattern onto reality to prove that we exist. The pattern is caused by apparent instances of conscious will. But the pattern is an illusion. There is really nothing there. There is no pattern.

Is there a "driver"? Kanisza

"I" can never attain a result, whether that result is coarse pleasure or enlightenment, through "willpower" or 'effort" - there is no "I", a "result" does not exist.

Compassion can be nothing other than helping others to realize this.
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Post by kowtaaia Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:52 am

Element wrote:
Buddha taught wisdom is the controller.
Faith is a person's partner and wisdom is what instructs him.
Taking delight in Nibbana, a mortal is released from all suffering.

SN 1.59

What you quoted doesn't equate to "wisdom is the controller".


Last edited by kowtaaia on Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Element Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:37 am

kowtaaia cyclops wrote:What you quoted doesn't equate to "wisdom is the controller".
Is their no controller? Is there no driver?
And the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And rising out of the fourth jhana, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. And rising out of the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he attained to the cessation of perception and feeling.

And the Venerable Ananda spoke to the Venerable
Anuruddha, saying: "Venerable Anuruddha, the Blessed One has passed away."

"No, friend Ananda, the Blessed One has not passed away. He has entered the state of the cessation of perception and feeling."

Then the Blessed One, rising from the cessation of perception and feeling, entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the fourth jhana. Rising from the fourth jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the first jhana.

Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away.

Maha-parinibbana Sutta


Last edited by Element on Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Element Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:43 am

kowtaaia :ufo: wrote:What you quoted doesn't equate to "wisdom is the controller".
Is there is no controller? Is there no driver?
And how is one a noble one with developed faculties? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome & what is. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not. If he wants — in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not — cutting himself off from both, he remains equanimous, alert & mindful.


"When hearing a sound with the ear... When smelling an aroma with the nose... When tasting a flavor with the tongue... When touching a tactile sensation with the body... When cognizing an idea with the intellect, there arises in him what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome & what is. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not. If he wants — in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not — cutting himself off from both, he remains equanimous, alert & mindful.


This is how one is a noble one with developed faculties.



The Development of the Faculties
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Post by Element Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:58 am

kowtaaia 🎈 wrote:What you quoted doesn't equate to "wisdom is the controller".
Is there no controller? Is there no driver?
"Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated & well-undertaken, ten benefits can be expected. Which ten?

[1] "He conquers displeasure & delight, and displeasure does not conquer him. He remains victorious over any displeasure that has arisen.

[2] "He conquers fear & dread, and fear & dread do not conquer him. He remains victorious over any fear & dread that have arisen.

[3] "He is resistant to cold, heat, hunger, thirst, the touch of gadflies & mosquitoes, wind & sun & creeping things; to abusive, hurtful language; he is the sort that can endure bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, sharp, stabbing, fierce, distasteful, disagreeable, deadly.

[4] "He can attain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhanas — heightened mental states providing a pleasant abiding in the here & now.

[5] "He wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space. He dives in & out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

[6] "He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far.

[7] "He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He discerns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled mind [one that is not at the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind.

[8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.

[9] "He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.

[10] "Through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here & now.

"Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken, these ten benefits can be expected."

MN 119
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Post by Element Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:02 am

kowtaaia :cartman: wrote:What you quoted doesn't equate to "wisdom is the controller".
Is there no controller? Is there no driver?
362. He who has control over his hands, feet and tongue; who is fully controlled, delights in inward development, is absorbed in meditation, keeps to himself and is contented — him do people call a monk.


363.
That monk who has control over his tongue, is moderate in speech, unassuming and who explains the Teaching in both letter and spirit — whatever he says is pleasing.


Dhammapada
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Post by kowtaaia Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:44 pm

Nothing you posted changes the fact that:

Faith is a person's partner and wisdom is what instructs him.
Taking delight in Nibbana, a mortal is released from all suffering.


doesn't equate to "wisdom is the controller".
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Post by Element Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:41 pm

kowtaaia wrote:Nothing you posted changes the fact that:


Faith is a person's partner and wisdom is what instructs him.
Taking delight in Nibbana, a mortal is released from all suffering.


doesn't equate to "wisdom is the controller".
Your view has no grounds. Thus it is without sustance.
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Post by kowtaaia Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:45 pm

Element wrote:
kowtaaia wrote:Nothing you posted changes the fact that:


Faith is a person's partner and wisdom is what instructs him.
Taking delight in Nibbana, a mortal is released from all suffering.


doesn't equate to "wisdom is the controller".
Your view has no grounds. Thus it is without sustance.

It's not a view. It's called 'English comprehension'.

Again, your quote does not equate to "wisdom is the controller".
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Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:00 pm

If anatta is so, then nothing inside our outside of the khandas exists to exert any control. What then is it that exerts control? It isn't rupa, sanna, vedana, sankhara or vinnana. So what could it be, where could it come from? It can only be experienced the same way the khandas are experienced, as a dream. A dream of control is not control, it's delusion. Awakening is liberation. And telling others about the dream is compassion. The conventional has only one function - to point away from itself, to the ultimate.
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