Re: Something we should ponder about

by caz namyaw Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:23 pm

dorje wrote:The methods are the same. Thogal and trekchod of Dzogchen is essentially congruent to the generation and completion stages of HYT.

The only difference is terminology, but then again all the terminology is talking about the same thing.

The results of all the methods is also the same: rainbow body or jalu.

Different methods for different people seeing as all people are not the same there cannot be any logic is practising all 4 traditions as the methods are different for different types of people.

peace

xxx

by sherab zangpo Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:20 pm

caz namyaw wrote:

that it is a great waste and rather insulting to them by practising with other traditions as almost to say this tradition isnt complete so i shall practise with others.

No one has said that at all here, your simply making up things for your own comfort .

Rime is a best a political movement designed to consolidate spiritual and political power over tibet with one person.

This is not correct understanding.

Pure practise is practising one unmixed doctrine, they are all pure and do not need to be mixed it just pollutes the dharma futher for future generations who will have a mishmash of all different traditions and all special qualities will be lost.

Your making no sense again, on one hand your saying no one tradition is special, then you say that a tradition has special pure unpolluted doctorine.

Degeneration is happening now and people are loving it, guided in a mask of non sectarianism Spiritual mixing is creating in complete doctrines and practitoners who will accomplish little as they hop different paths and methods.

The current buddhas teachings will disapear. The only degeneration is taking worldly spirits as proper objects of refuge with offerings and sadhanas and what nots.

peace

xxx

Indeed.

by Karma Dondrup Tashi Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:46 pm

dorje wrote:The methods are the same. Thogal and trekchod of Dzogchen is essentially congruent to the generation and completion stages of HYT.

:shock:

I don't think that is the case ... Then again I am not Mennagde practitioner. But Nyingma anuyoga completion stage is quite different, I think. They both can result in rainbow body, I think.

Could you elaborate what you mean?

by Element Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:19 pm

zenzen wrote:Right view is the emanation, the result, the side effect, of no-mind-no-thought. As such, it is like all other views. A view.

Higher right view arises when the mind is saturated with directly seeing the rise & fall of phenomena and the associated and inseparable unsatisfactoriness and voidness (not-self) of that unceasingly impermanent phenomena.

A practitioner that does not talk about impermanence readily, easily, immediately, is one who has not really practised.

If we are stuck in an infatuation with 'oneness', we are very far away from the Budddha-Dhamma.

Infatuation is not the result of right view. The result of right view is dispassion.

Those who do not immediately relate right view with impermanence & dispassion have not practised deeply to Noble level.

They are merely caught up in love and lust.

Buddha called attachment to oneness 'lust'. This is because those infatuated with oneness are infatuated with sense phenomena, like looking a lover in the eyes. :love:

by sherab zangpo Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:20 am

Element wrote:

Infatuation is not the result of right view. The result of right view is dispassion.

This appears one sided.

Could you give a more even, rounded reply?

Thanks

Sherab

by sherab zangpo Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:28 am

dorje wrote:Chimey Dorje Rinpoche has already stated:

"How can there possibly be any difference between the view of prajnaparamita, which is
the very nature of Chö,

Chod deserves its own thread.

by dorje Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:48 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Could you elaborate what you mean?

To clarify my earlier stand, all tantric lineages focus on Guru Yoga. They all focus on the 2 accumulations, and all of them deal with winds and energies within the body as completion stage practices.

All tantric lineages hold bodhicitta as the basis of all the practices, and essentially the samaya vows across the traditions are the same. And all the lineages have Ja-Lu (Rainbow Body) as the result of their practices.

Dzogchen, Mahamudra, the inseparability of Samsara and Nirvana, and other such terms, are wisdoms, which deals with the innate nature of the mind.

The terminology between the traditions may vary, because words convey different meaning to different people, but the practice is the same: the 2 accumulations, Guru Yoga, generation and completion stages, and the samaya which comes along practicing these practices.

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:But Nyingma anuyoga completion stage is quite different, I think. They both can result in rainbow body, I think.

Could you elaborate what you mean?

Maha, anu, ati yoga in the Nyingma system is the same as HYT. Just different form of classification.

by sherab zangpo Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:25 am

This is as generic, and vague, as Im going to discuss,

There is the Gyulu - the yoga of the illusory body, one of the six yogas, which is at the atom level and not as refined as the jalu, or even the great transfer. Gyulu, one needs not manifest death, jalu one needs to manifest death, leave impure aspects, over time, integrate into pure elements etc. Great transfer, one needs not demonstrate death at all.
So not the same at all.

with warmth.

sherab.

by caz namyaw Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:05 pm

sherab zangpo wrote:
caz namyaw wrote:

that it is a great waste and rather insulting to them by practising with other traditions as almost to say this tradition isnt complete so i shall practise with others.

No one has said that at all here, your simply making up things for your own comfort .

Rime is a best a political movement designed to consolidate spiritual and political power over tibet with one person.

This is not correct understanding.

Pure practise is practising one unmixed doctrine, they are all pure and do not need to be mixed it just pollutes the dharma futher for future generations who will have a mishmash of all different traditions and all special qualities will be lost.

Your making no sense again, on one hand your saying no one tradition is special, then you say that a tradition has special pure unpolluted doctorine.

Degeneration is happening now and people are loving it, guided in a mask of non sectarianism Spiritual mixing is creating in complete doctrines and practitoners who will accomplish little as they hop different paths and methods.

The current buddhas teachings will disapear. The only degeneration is taking worldly spirits as proper objects of refuge with offerings and sadhanas and what nots.

peace

xxx

Indeed.

Worldly spirits you mean nechung

by sherab zangpo Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:52 am

Nechung is the oracle, a man of flesh and blood, whom is called Nechung because of the monastery that is his residence.

I think you mean Pehar, whom was oath bound by Guru Padmasambhava.

by davcuts Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:09 am

caz namyaw wrote:
Drolma wrote:Hi Caz,

When you write "pure practice," or "practice purely," do you basically mean staying within your sect or tradition? Or do you mean something else?

Best,
Drolma

By this i mean practise purely with your own tradition the great masters worked so hard to accomplish different doctrines to suit the needs of individuals that it is a great waste and rather insulting to them by practising with other traditions as almost to say this tradition isnt complete so i shall practise with others.

Rime is a best a political movement designed to consolidate spiritual and political power over tibet with one person.

Pure practise is practising one unmixed doctrine, they are all pure and do not need to be mixed it just pollutes the dharma futher for future generations who will have a mishmash of all different traditions and all special qualities will be lost.

Degeneration is happening now and people are loving it, guided in a mask of non sectarianism Spiritual mixing is creating in complete doctrines and practitoners who will accomplish little as they hop different paths and methods.

If you do not wish your tradition to become quickly extinct then preserve its teachings an authenticity by practising that path.

One path will lead to all accomplishments, practising many different paths together will lead to very little.

peace

xxx

Caz, if this is what you believe, then why are you even here? Do you feel this way because Geshe-la says it's best not to mix with other traditions or read books by other teachers? Tell me have you ever tried to read books by other teachers? If so did you take those books to your center to encourage others to read them? Probably not because you don't want to mix pure Dharma with Dharma that has been corrupted with Tibetan politics. The statements you made above are nothing more then sectarian mumbo jumbo. I recommend you attend the teaching of another tradition to see for yourself if mixing traditions will make you so confused you might want to stray from the path. Plus also keep in mind some paths lead to enlightenment, others only lead to the lower realms.

Take care,
Dave

by caz namyaw Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:01 am

sherab zangpo wrote:Nechung is the oracle, a man of flesh and blood, whom is called Nechung because of the monastery that is his residence.

I think you mean Pehar, whom was oath bound by Guru Padmasambhava.

Yes same thing....question sherab this being is a spirit so why has it not been removed, as it is an inappropriate form of refuge or counsel, and has given reputed bad advice over many years and yet it is still in use.....Remember tibet will be free by 2000 ?
:roll:
Why does this nechung have his own temple for a worldly spirit ?

i think perhapes there is a tad bit of hypocrisy there.

peace

xxx

by caz namyaw Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:23 am

davcuts wrote:
caz namyaw wrote:
Drolma wrote:Hi Caz,

When you write "pure practice," or "practice purely," do you basically mean staying within your sect or tradition? Or do you mean something else?

Best,
Drolma

By this i mean practise purely with your own tradition the great masters worked so hard to accomplish different doctrines to suit the needs of individuals that it is a great waste and rather insulting to them by practising with other traditions as almost to say this tradition isnt complete so i shall practise with others.

Rime is a best a political movement designed to consolidate spiritual and political power over tibet with one person.

Pure practise is practising one unmixed doctrine, they are all pure and do not need to be mixed it just pollutes the dharma futher for future generations who will have a mishmash of all different traditions and all special qualities will be lost.

Degeneration is happening now and people are loving it, guided in a mask of non sectarianism Spiritual mixing is creating in complete doctrines and practitoners who will accomplish little as they hop different paths and methods.

If you do not wish your tradition to become quickly extinct then preserve its teachings an authenticity by practising that path.

One path will lead to all accomplishments, practising many different paths together will lead to very little.

peace

xxx

Caz, if this is what you believe, then why are you even here? Do you feel this way because Geshe-la says it's best not to mix with other traditions or read books by other teachers? Tell me have you ever tried to read books by other teachers? If so did you take those books to your center to encourage others to read them? Probably not because you don't want to mix pure Dharma with Dharma that has been corrupted with Tibetan politics. The statements you made above are nothing more then sectarian mumbo jumbo. I recommend you attend the teaching of another tradition to see for yourself if mixing traditions will make you so confused you might want to stray from the path. Plus also keep in mind some paths lead to enlightenment, others only lead to the lower realms.

Take care,
Dave

No dav i dont feel this way just because geshe-la says i have listened to what my spiritual guide says and taken his advice into consideration and made my own assements as well.

I personally beleive that all 4 schools of tibetan buddhism are pure dharma and a complete path to enlightenment, its not sectarian to want to keep them as they where in their original forms sectarianism in the worst way arises from disrespect and having a superiority complex which all 4 traditions should avoid, however there is no need to mix them if it aint broke dont mix it.
Do you really think it shines a good light on each tradition when people are practising all over the place, the only reason people would have to do this would be if they where incomplete....it shines a bad light on them to mix them, people need to remember that they all lead to the same end but employ different methods to get their, and not all these methods are compatible.....And yes unfortunatly tibetan buddhism is heavily mixed with tibetan politics this is blindingly obvious as what happens to people who disagree with the current dalai lama....they become outcasts and objects of contempt among the community for having dared speak out, this is the kind of thing buddhism should not be...this is again the danger of the non seperation of church and state and this brings us back round the where it begins again if someone having the leadership of the government, and then coincedentally are also in favour of practising with so called non sectarianism of all 4 traditions what happens to the spiritual heads of those 4 traditions ??? they become obselete, why because when A person holds temporal and spiritual power there is no need for anyone elses council or opinion other then that person in question thus resulting in the dilution of tibetan buddhism with politics as practising with a tradition soley for their teachings becomes a big no no as it is now apparently sectarian. Who is the current face of rime ? The dalai lama and what happens when people are made to feel they are sectarian for practising only one tradition they always flock to the person they feel has a beckon of light shining from them and always follow their advice, and the advice at current being to practise non sectarian buddhism give that person in question not only political and spiritual authority over them but removes the spiritual authority of teachers of those traditions and everybody begins to view them as sectarian for practising only one thing as their teachers taught them.

This is the conclusion i have come to dav....so this is why i prefer to practise only one unmixed tradition, with a clear line of sight of who it has come from where it is heading (not to the lower realms by the way as all the works are based on what has been taught from lineage and upon Je tsongkhapas teachings)

There is one thing not to confuse with though to imagine that i have some sort of hatred or distaste for other schools, i view them as i have said as pure paths and rejoice that people have the oppertunity to practise these profound paths.

Take care dave.

peace

xxx

by sherab zangpo Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:01 pm

caz namyaw wrote:
Why does this nechung have his own temple for a worldly spirit ?

i think perhapes there is a tad bit of hypocrisy there.

peace

xxx

Nechung traditionally has his residence near the government of Tibet. Kind of like your White hall in London. All ministry's close by Downing street, ready to give council.
I dont understand what hypocrisy exists in your mind.
Nechung is not a temple as you imply. Its a monastery and his residence.

As for the effectiveness of Nechungs council, that really is up to the individuals who receive the advice to determine.

by sherab zangpo Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:09 pm

Caz, no Dalai Lama criticism please.

I let you have this once, since you made effort to make your position know, next time I remove the whole post!

thanks.

Sherab

by sherab zangpo Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:56 pm

Regarding the Nechung Oracle and His Hollines, Tenzin Gyatso the 14th Dalai Lama.

In his autobiography, Freedom in Exile, His Holiness the Dalai Lama writes;

"For hundreds of years now, it has been traditional for the Dalai Lama, and the Government, to consult Nechung during the New Year festivals. In addition, he might well be called upon at other times if either have specific queries. I myself have dealings with him several times a year This may sound far-fetched to twentieth-century western readers. Even some Tibetans, mostly those who consider themselves 'progressive', have misgivings about my continued use of this ancient method of intelligence gathering. But I do so for the simple reason that as I look back over the many occasions when I have asked questions of the oracle, on each one of them time has proved that his answer was correct. This is not to say that I rely solely on the oracle's advice. I do not. I seek his opinion in the same way as I seek the opinion of my Cabinet and just as I seek the opinion of my own conscience. I consider the gods to be my 'upper house'. The Kashag constitutes my lower house. Like any other leader, I consult both before making a decision on affairs of state. And sometimes, in addition to Nechung's counsel, I also take into consideration certain prophecies."

"In one respect, the responsibility of Nechung and the responsibility of the Dalai Lama towards Tibet are the same, though we act in different ways. My task, that of leadership, is peaceful. His, in his capacity as protector and defender, is wrathful. However, although our functions are similar, my relationship with Nechung is that of commander to lieutenant: I never bow down to him. It is for Nechung to bow to the Dalai Lama. Yet we are very close, friends almost. When I was small, it was touching. Nechung liked me a lot and always took great care of me. For example, if he noticed that I had dressed carelessly or improperly, he would come over and rearrange my shirt, adjust my robe and so on."

"Nechung has always shown respect for me. Even when his relations with the Government have deteriorated, as they did during the last few years of the Regency, he invariably responds enthusiastically whenever asked anything about me. At the same time, his replies to questions about government policy can be crushing. Sometimes he just responds with a burst of sarcastic laughter. I well remember a particular incident that occurred when I was about fourteen. Nechung was asked a question about China. Rather than answer it directly, the Kuten turned towards the East and began bending forward violently. It was frightening to watch, knowing that this movement combined with the weight of the massive helmet he wore on his head would be enough to snap his neck. He did it at least fifteen times, leaving no one in any doubt about where the danger lay."

"Dealing with Nechung is by no means easy. It takes time and patience during each encounter before he will open up. He is very reserved and austere, just as you would imagine a grand old man of ancient times to be. Nor does he bother with minor matters: his interest is only in the larger issues, so it pays to frame questions accordingly. He also has definite likes and dislikes, but he does not show them very readily."

"Nechung has his own monastery in Dharamsala, but usually he comes to me. On formal occasions, the Kuten is dressed in an elaborate costume consisting of several layers of clothing topped by a highly ornate robe of golden silk brocade, which is covered with ancient designs in red and blue and green and yellow. On his chest he wears a circular mirror which is surrounded by clusters of turquoise and amethyst, its polished steel flashing with the Sanskrit mantra corresponding to Dorje Drakden. Before the proceedings begin, he also puts on a sort of harness, which supports four flags and three victory banners. Altogether, this outfit weighs more than seventy pounds and the medium, when not in trance, can hardly walk in it."

"The ceremony begins with chanted invocations and prayers, accompanied by the urgings of horns, cymbals and drums. After a short while, the Kuten enters his trance, having been supported until then by his assistants, who now help him over to a small stool set before my throne. Then, as the first prayer cycle concludes and the second begins, his trance begins to deepen. At this point, a huge helmet is placed on his head. This item weighs approximately thirty pounds, though in former times it weighed over eighty."

"Now the kuten's face transforms, becoming rather wild before puffing up to give him an altogether strange appearance, with bulging eyes and swollen cheeks. His breathing begins to shorten and he starts to hiss violently. Then, momentarily, his respiration stops. At this point the helmet is tied in place with a knot so tight that it would undoubtedly strangle the Kuten if something very real were not happening. The possession is now complete and the mortal frame of the medium expands visibly."

"Next, he leaps up with a start and, grabbing a ritual sword from one of his attendants, begins to dance with slow, dignified, yet somehow menacing, steps. He then comes in front of me and either prostrates fully or bows deeply from the waist until his helmet touches the ground before springing back up, the weight of his regalia counting for nothing. The volcanic energy of the deity can barely be contained within the earthly frailty of the kuten, who moves and gestures as if his body were made of rubber and driven by a coiled spring of enormous power.

"There follows an interchange between Nechung and myself, where he makes ritual offerings to me. I then ask any personal questions I have for him. After replying, he returns to his stool and listens to questions put by members of the Government. Before giving answers to these the Kuten begins to dance again, thrashing his sword above his head. He looks like a magnificent, fierce Tibetan warrior chieftain of old."

"As soon as Dorje Drakden has finished speaking, the Kuten makes a final offering before collapsing, a rigid and lifeless form, signifying the end of the possession. Simultaneously, the knot holding his helmet in place is untied in a great hurry by his assistants, who then carry him out to recover whilst the ceremony continues."

"Surprising as it may seem, the oracle's replies to questions are rarely vague. As in the case of my escape from Lhasa, he is often very specific. But I suppose that it would be difficult for any scientific investigation either to prove or disprove conclusively the validity of his pronouncements. The same would surely be true of other areas of Tibetan experience, for example the matter of tulkus (reincarnate lamas)."
http://nechung.com/nechung%20oracle.html

by sherab zangpo Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:03 pm

Dorje Drakden is a later name given for the Gyalpo Pehar that was oath bound with the Vajrakilaya dance performed at Samye monastery by Guru Padmasambhava.

by caz namyaw Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:14 am

sherab zangpo wrote:Caz, no Dalai Lama criticism please.

I let you have this once, since you made effort to make your position know, next time I remove the whole post!

thanks.

Sherab

Had my say to clarify my position thats all that was needed, thanks sherab.

peace

xxx

by sherab zangpo Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:47 am

Sorry Caz to delete your post.

Getting off topic in terms of the original posters thread. Not saying that your opinions are not welcome in the mix, just getting off course.

all the best

Sherab

by floating syrian Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:25 pm

caz, by registering to this forum and participating in this community, you're agree to respect the Terms of Service.

From the Terms of Service:

The Buddhist Lounge will abide by instructions given to practitioners by the Dalai Lama in regards to discussion of controversial issues, practices, and images.

Also, it has been stated that off-limits for debate are:

Drolma wrote:
1. NKT/Cults/Protector/HHDL
2. Persistant Mahayana and Vajrayana bashing
3. Hinayana debates or using the word out of context as a slur
4. Persistantly calling those who ascribe to the doctrine of rebirth Hindus
5. Personal attacks on people

by caz namyaw Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:56 pm

floating syrian wrote:caz, by registering to this forum and participating in this community, you're agree to respect the Terms of Service.

From the Terms of Service:

The Buddhist Lounge will abide by instructions given to practitioners by the Dalai Lama in regards to discussion of controversial issues, practices, and images.

Also, it has been stated that off-limits for debate are:

Drolma wrote:
1. NKT/Cults/Protector/HHDL
2. Persistant Mahayana and Vajrayana bashing
3. Hinayana debates or using the word out of context as a slur
4. Persistantly calling those who ascribe to the doctrine of rebirth Hindus
5. Personal attacks on people

If you notice, it was directed that way....not by me :deadhorse:

peace

xxx

by **LauraJ** Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:19 pm

It sort of took on a life of its own. I have to admit that I'm surprised that Rime is objectionable, only because I've never heard objections before. For various reason, I think this is a healthy, fruitful discussion despite a couple of strange turns.

by muni Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:13 am

That view on the schools is very funny. Smile

At the other hand there are exactly no distinctions, none at all. Absolute truth isn't divided in parts.
What is divided can be seen as "mine" and clinging is born.

by Karma Dondrup Tashi Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:43 pm

muni wrote:That view on the schools is very funny.
At the other hand there are exactly no distinctions, none at all. Absolute truth isn't divided in parts.
What is divided can be seen as "mine" and clinging is born.

As an incurable synchretist, I agree.

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